Why are Calvinists Being Persecuted?

11588-thumbnailhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsxLwi02N_A

I really must ask myself why anyone would seek to divide the body of Christ further – have we not been divided already, many times, while a watching world scratches its collective head and wonders what it is that we are so confused about…  After all, we are all a bunch of crazies anyway.  TicToc Ministries was not even on my radar until this troublesome video landed on Youtube recently.  I am not calling TicToc Ministries troublesome  lightly,either.  This is a most grievous situation.  To be honest I am unfamiliar with them.  I do have a problem with this video, however.

First of all, I am certainly no Theologian, and have no business attempting to define Calvinism.  I only know that I hold to the doctrine.  If you are looking for a concise view of Calvinism from the viewpoint of a Theologian, I will post some links at the end of the article which you can check out for yourselves.  I had originally attempted to do just that, but then realised my folly.  There are more educated and better minds than mine for such a task, and so I shall leave it to them.  I will give you my interpretation of Calvinism, though, or Reformed Theology, since that is what I do best.  Write what you know, isn’t that what they always tell you?  I know my own mind, and so I think it best to stick with that.

The five points of Calvinism form an acronym: TULIP, which is kind of neat because it makes it easy to remember them.  Remember folks, I am just a regular girl, not a Theologian, although if I had known that I was to be a Christian I surely would have chosen to study Theology.  It so happens that I love to study it…  Anyway.  The first letter stands for total depravity, meaning the total depravity of men.  We are so depraved, in fact, that we are unable to come to God of our own free will, since we are born into the world under the curse of original sin and cannot discern spiritual things.    Good thing for us that God has great love for men, or certain men whom He chose before the foundation of the world.   This is where it gets tricky.  People do not like this part, they say its unfair, and in the flesh of course I guess it would seem to be so, but when once we are reborn and understand our own total depravity, it is easy to understand that God is under obligation to no man; it is His  universe and He can run it any way He chooses.  Man has defied God, has in fact tried to be god, has rebelled against Holy God and is under a curse.  This is where the U part of the TULIP comes in, which stands for God’s uncontional election.  So let me stop right here and quote Scripture, if I may, because everyone objects to this part of the TULIP.

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise and glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.” 

There it is folks, Ephesians 1:2-6.  Its in the Bible.  Non-Calvinists, or Arminians, do not like this Scripture and will generally throw John 3:16 at you when you give it to them, but nevertheless there it is.  Apparently God chose some of us to be partakers of His grace, His divine mercy and compassion.  Remember, “Jacob I loved, but Essau I hated”…  It is God’s universe and He is under no obligation to rebellious mankind, who has defied His Holy law and rejected Him.   So that brings us to the L.  The L stands for limited atonement.  That is to say that the death of Jesus Christ was for the redemption of God’s people, His chosen ones, and not for the whole of mankind.  I can already hear you…   But wait!  That isn’t fair!  Shouldn’t everyone have a chance to be saved?  It surely seems that way to the human mind, which likes democracy, but God’s Kingdom is not a democracy, it is a Theocracy, and it is His to rule and reign over as the sovereign King that He is.  This is the part that Arminians don’t like.  They think its unfair and that it should be left up to every man and woman whether or not they will be saved.  But this is ridiculous.  *If God controls the smallest details of life on earth so that not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart form the will of God (Matthew 10:29) then do you really think that God is giving up any control over salvation to man’s free will?  Uh uh.  I don’t think so.  And this is good news for us because the I stands for irrestistable grace.  That is to say that for those of us who have been chosen, He is irresistable.  He draws us to Himself so that even though we run away and defile ourselves with sin, we always run back to Him and feel terrible for it and beg Him to forgive us and He always does.  Isn’t that good?  People like to say that Calvinists like to sin, and we invented this theology so that we could sin freely.  But this is patently absurd.  The true believer loves God and does not want to sin.  The problem is, however, that we are all born with a sinful nature and even after being born again the root of sin stubbornly stays firmly rooted in our being.  Which brings us to another wonderful part of the TULIP, the P; which is the perseverence or the preservation of the saints.  God will bring His people all they way through the storms of life and safely deliver us home.  How cool is that?

That, in essense, is what Calvinism is.   I actually thought that this was the way that most Christians believe, but I have certainly discovered otherwise.  According to TicToc, we are not even Christians…  We are to be shunned and ostracised!  Shame on TicToc!  We are God’s children.  We have been drawn to Him through supernatural means, we are all living miracles because we were dead in our sins and God has miraculously given us life, and that eternal!  Life is short  and eternity is forever…  And I am so grateful to God for my salvation!

I am not too sure what the fuss is all about, but I am about to tell you what I think it might be.  I think, (and please don’t be mad at me) that some people do not believe that God drew them to Himself by supernatural means because they are proud.  Maybe.  Or maybe they are unsure of their salvation because they do not recall any such drawing process.  It could be that they think its just not fair.  It could be because there are some really smart Calvinists who may make them feel slightly dumb; I know they make me feel that way!  There are a host of reasons why people resist the idea of Calvinism because Calvinism is Christianity.  People will always resist the Truth, because they do not like to give up their own free will, and this we must do if we are to be delivered.  We must learn to let Jesus live through us.  We must become less so that He can become more.  Those of you who are familiar with my writing know that I went through this drawing process…  And I have not yet even gotten to my salvation, in the few short stories and things I have written about my life.  We are only up to the part where my brother died and I had the awesome experience of God pouring His love into me.  It was many years before I came to a knowledge of the Truth.  I had always felt God’s presense but I really didn’t know anything about Him.  Now I do, and one thing of which I am absolutely sure is that God is sovereign over His creation.  He is the awesome God who makes galaxies and rainbows and He is mighty to save.  But salvation is His.  It is not something which we can choose for ourselves.  If we could choose it for ourselves, wouldn’t we have done so?  If the Truth is in us we know that it was an act of God, this drawing process which brought us to Him.  Where there is a saved person there is always God doing a prevenient work in their soul.  I can quote you scriptures til the cows come home, but the truth is most likely you know them all.  I don’t think that too many of TicToc’s people will be reading my blog.  They have cut themselves off from the only people who can set them aright, and so I pray to God for the Holy Spirit to convict them of their sin.  A most greivous one, which did a lot of damage and hurt a lot of people.  Not to mention to lead some astray.  GOD IS ABSOLUTELY SOVEREIGN OVER HIS CREATION.  This I know if I know nothing else.  

“What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?”                                                                                                           Romans 9:22-24

Whatever it is you believe, the Truth is the Truth.  There is only one Bible.  There is only one way to correctly divide the word of truth.  I don’t know how to be subtle sometimes, but honestly, the Truth will always offend man and his silly pride.  And what have we to be so proud about?  Nothing.  Jesus Christ came to a suffering, lost, and ruined world, which was accursed, and He of  HIS OWN FREE WILL decided that there were some to whom He would display His holy wrath, His righteous anger, and that there would be some to whom He would display His mercy.  It would seem that God has a whole range of attributes and He is going to display them all.

For those of you who have not read my blog before, I hope you will come back and visit.  Most Youtubers don’t like to be bothered with a bunch of words, but there are some of us out here who still prefer the written word as a medium.  At any rate, I appreciate your having visited, and let me say that there are a lot of you who have given me great comfort through this entire ordeal with TicToc.  And make no mistake, it is an ordeal.  When you know that you have the Truth and nobody wants to believe it, even though you can back it up with Scripture, that is a pretty sad commentary.  Now that there are people who are declaring that we are not Christians I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Calvinism is the true way to divide the word of truth, because people always resist the Truth.  I know how stubborn I have been with God about many things, but I have never doubted His word, and I thank God that He has taught me so much about Himself and His word.

Why do the doctrines of grace disturb men so much?  They should be the most comforting words in world!  We who are in Christ have been purchased by God through the blood of His beloved Son Jesus Christ our Lord and it does not depend on anything we have done to merit or earn it in any way, hence, how can we lose something we never deserved to begin with by lawkeeping?   Mind you, the soul which has been ransomed will seek to please God out of love and adoration and gratitude for the marvelous gift of eternal life which has been given to us, but this in no way adds to the atoning work of our Lord on the cross.  Men do not like this doctrine only if they are unsure of their own salvation, because if they were certain they would certainly know that Calvinism is nothing more than the word of truth rightly divided.  Calvinists can be proud, they can block you and get defensive just like TicToc has been defensive. 

This really must stop!  I implore you, brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus to stop this folly!

I offer my blog as a neutral meeting ground for both sides.  I will not edit the comments.  If you are a believer in Christ Jesus as Lord and Saviour you may freely post your comments here, and by the grace of our Lord we will find a peace between us.  We are brothers and sisters.   

Here are some refutations of TicToc’s videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzUIMt5dzls&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kXPFulb29Q&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFe4TexaVEg&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qiokduc5D0Q&feature=channel_page

This one is just quirky and I like it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OebZJzB7W_c&feature=channel_page

 *This sentence was borrowed from Bill Hornbeck’s terrific website.  God bless you, Bill.

 

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.”                                                                                                                                                  Ephesians 2:8,9                

julietsm

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58 Responses to “Why are Calvinists Being Persecuted?”

  1. The doctrine of predestination continues to present itself to even the most learned scholar a deep unfathomable mystery.I personally prefer not to hinge my system of belief upon any creed that has devolped over the years.
    Take for example the apostles creed that men formulated to outline their dogma of the christian faith years after the apostles passed on.
    Even within this creed there is disagreement as to the phrase”He descemed into hell.”
    The debate settles in upon the term ‘hell’,for even here the brethen find themselves in oppostion one with another.
    It matters not when the pharse was added,the problem arises when men decide to incorporate the mystery of godliness as though they are the sole proprietors.
    The reformers set out to correct the misappropriation of the word by the Roman Cathoilc church,while we owe them a debt of gratitude let us be cautious of not making the same mistake that they were seeking to correct, but continue to press on to know the truth in it’s great immeasurable vastness with childlike faith that pleases the Father.
    I appreciate your desire to know and present the truth Juliet,you are very dear to me and be assured your work has not gone unnoticed,it is always profitable to examine ourslelves and what we believe.
    to the praise of his great name
    Arin~

  2. A very good & well written article again Juliet about a subject close to your heart as always. As a very recent believer after years of agnosticism I am still really coming to grips with Christianity from the other side so to speak, so what little I know & can see myself from the bible I will try to add to this debate.

    It is clear to all that there are parts of the bible that are quite hard to interoperate, fathom or just plain understand fully. This is in part due to quite a few things; mistranslation, misunderstanding, ignorance or cultural differences over the time since the texts were written. Also, in all language there is always an amount of ambiguity in what the written word can actually mean here. Furthermore, when an author writes a piece, he/she can clearly understands all of what they have written, yet they can never fully see their piece with the eyes of another, so cannot fully take into account any of these small (but sometimes crucial) misinterpretations that can occur.

    Of course down the ages since the bible has been completed there have been many arguments over various aspects of Christianity; the divinity of Christ himself, to the Virgin birth, the Trinity, the nature of Hell etc,etc, are just a few to mention aside from any other deep theological issues that have taxed the minds of some of the great thinkers in history.

    So, with this in mind can we give a definitive answer as to what true Christianity actually is? I think the answer to this is yes. And I think that the real answer is to look at the words contained in the bible from the lips of Christ himself as he spoke them to his disciples. And in the debate here on whether Christianity follows either the Calvinist or Arminian school of thought on doctrine here are just two snippets that I can think of that may shed illumination on it.

    Matthew 7:13-16 “Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through. How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it. Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves. You’ll recognise them by the fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?”

    Matthew 7: 21-23 “Not everyone who says to me “Lord, Lord!” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of My Father in heaven. On that day many will say to me, “Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name? Then I will announce to them, “I never knew you! Depart from Me you lawbreakers!”

    So, from these two parts of Matthew we can clearly see that 1) the way to heaven is hard and difficult to achieve and that not everyone will get there. 2) also that even people who think themselves as Christians too do not get to heaven.

    So it is clear only from these few verses that heaven is not open to all, even those who call themselves Christians either. Now if these words of Jesus’ are true (and surely we cannot doubt that they are, else we would have to abandon all the words of the bible too because of doubt here as well) then does this seem like a universal statement of salvation here that Christ is talking about? Clearly the answer is no; not all will get to heaven, even amongst us Christians. So, if this is indeed the case, then it is not by the works or the will of man that we gain entrance to heaven, but by the grace & the love of God Himself only.

    Now this is indeed not very popular. After all, don’t we all feel that as Christians we have an automatic right to get into heaven? Well, as much as we may like that concept, it appears that it is not the case, as even Christ Himself says in the bible.

    Much food for thought I think Juliet for us all here. I am sure there are many who can add to this, or even to debate what I have put out here. I just thought that I would add my own limited 10 cents worth here.

    God Bless you my good friend and sister. Keep up with the great words my friend!

  3. Kinda long, but pretty good blog post! I like that you did this article. I like that you defined TULIP. In general, good job sis!

    Love, peace, and God bless you.

    • I was trying to do “Calvinism for Dummies”. Glad you liked it.
      I tend to go on a bit, don’t I?
      Thanks for reading and commenting.
      Love, peace, and grace to you as well.

  4. I appreciate what you have said. I know you love God. If you want to know if some one is truly a member of the Bride of Christ, one determining factor is, they will dearly be seeking the truth in his word. I think the Spirit of God has flowed through you in your writings here. I also see the same in what Tic-Toc has said. All the books of the New Testament were written long before John Calvin. Everything he taught was already in Gods word before he was born to teach it. He was a great servant of God so why should he now become a stumbling block to us. If he were alive today I think he would defiantly tell us to stop all the divisions, and that he would never have wanted to cause such a thing. He would defiantly tell us to give all the glory to Jesus! Don’t you think?

    • Yes, I do agree with the last part of your comment, absolutely! I do not think it was ever his desire to cause division, but the five points of Calvinism were in refutation to the five points of Arminianism, which was declared a heresy.
      In the link provided in the prologue the original Canons of the Synod of Dordt are included, so that anyone can here can read them for themselves. Also I included a side by side analysis of the two doctrines for anyone who is not familiar with them.
      I hope anyone unfamiliar with Calvinism with read them and make their own determination as to their voracity.
      As for TicToc’s video, I do not agree, but rather think she has set herself up as the arbiter of biblical Truth, which I think is arrogant and certainy divisive

  5. Why are Calvinists persecuted? Well, perhaps you could learn from the Mormons here. Persecution is a sign that you have the truth, after all the devil fights against the truth. If you weren’t persecuted you’d rather have reason to doubt the truth of your religion……But also Muslims feel constantly persecuted (see for instance the Mohammed caricatures in Denmark, a little school child naming his puppet Mohammed etc etc etc). Not to mention the never ongoing persecution of scientology in some european countries and not to mention the persecution of Jehovah’s Witnesses throughout the world anyway……

    So probably these folks just have the truth and are provoking the devil

  6. unicornian Says:

    shun the unbeliever, shunnnnnned.

  7. Very good article, Juliet. I like your admission of not being an accomplished theologian, but holding to the doctrines taught in the Calvinist viewpoint. You’re right- we don’t need to be great theologians to understand and cherish those doctrines. The reason is because they are biblical and are easy to understand in their simplest form- just like the gospel. There is a seminary way to define it and a laymen’s way to define it. Both are the saving message of the gospel- the problem is that some preach from strife, but Christ is still proclaimed!

    Recognizing the sovereignty of God is always the best point to start from when studying theological viewpoints. When you have a high view of God and a low view of yourself (not in self-worth, but in power) you cannot help but become a Calvinist just by reading scripture alone! I didn’t need Calvinism to tell me I was a Calvinist. I learned it from scripture and then began to study the man Calvin and his work.

    We should always be careful never to elevate the theological viewpoints of men to the level of scripture and the gospel itself. Christ is preeminent in all things. If we continually keep that in focus our Calvinism will always begat doxology and Christ will get the glory.

    Excellent article. Well done.

    In Christ alone,
    Brett (bberchin)

    • This is why all other doctrines are wrong: because Christ is preeminent in all things. I have read comments at video forums where the writer wrote “I came to faith OF MY OWN FREEWILL”. Sure looks like boasting to me. Where there is a saved person, there is always God doing a prevenient work. We are God’s workmanship, and can lay hold of none of the credit.
      That is why, for me, Calvinism IS Christianity. I was a Calvinist before I knew what Calvinism is. Calvinism is the Word of Truth rightly divided.
      Armininianism smacks of humanism.

      • I certainly agree that Arminianism is secular humanism dressed up in Christian clothes, but I’m careful to stop short of saying Calvinism IS Christianity. Take a look at my video with that title, “Calvinism IS Christianity??”. I did a follow up video to it as well- I think you’ll agree with what I have to say in those 2 videos.

        I couldn’t leave you a pm on your YouTube so I’ll paste it here:

        Yes, please link to my video- it’s fine with me! I was very impressed with your blog. The images are beautiful and I like your writing style. I started my own blog called “Tetelestai”, but I haven’t had enough time to devote to writing for it. I think it’s a wonderful outlet, though, and a nice way to do some good old fashioned journaling while at the same time getting a message out to people.

        Thanks Juliet,
        Brett

    • Dyo Bodiu Says:

      Hi bberchin,
      Since the blog did not give me the “reply” option for you post, I answer you here.
      The non-calvinist beliefer can say about the calvinists taht they have to become “true believers” and hold to the truth of the Bible. You speak about grace as about a person; we are saved by Jesus and His sacrifice; by faith we receive the gift of salvation and the Holy Spirit. ALL THESE THINGS are grace.
      The common mistake the Calvinists make is to separate the grace by the Lord. Grace is God’s flavour in our lifes; you cannot sepate it from its source.
      I never found grace us the fundament of unity but the Holy Spirit.
      Those who are not Calvinists don’t necesarly have “Grace+___”; some of them could understand better what grace is, in a biblical way if you want.
      I’m sorry to tell you that, but you don’t have the monopoly of the biblical truth. Stop acting as you are the truth guardians.
      Humbelness is a very good bridge for people who disagree on some doctrines. That’s the way to the unity; by calling all the others heretical you are in a great danger.

      So, I hope you realise, Is not about who’s right but about Christ’s followers accepting ( why not loving !?!) each other.

      Blessings
      Dyo

  8. I find the doctrine of predestination very exciting. I have had a desire in my heart for God from an early age; it makes sense to me that God placed it there. All my life I have sensed God’s presence even in times when I was not living for Him. To know that many are called but few chosen and then be part of the chosen is very humbling and causes me to be filled with overflowing love for God.

    God’s blessings to you always!

    Sincerely, Jerry

  9. karensfaith Says:

    Juliet,

    Brilliant article! Very well done! This part was good:

    “Why do the doctrines of grace disturb men so much? They should be the most comforting words in world! We who are in Christ have been purchased by God through the blood of His beloved Son Jesus Christ our Lord and it does not depend on anything we have done to merit or earn it in any way, hence, how can we lose something we never deserved to begin with by lawkeeping?”

    Exactly! The Doctrines of Grace are beautiful and comforting! I have found much peace in them. We don’t deserve the gift we have been given by Christ and His selfless sacrifice on the cross for those of us who would belong to Him but He did it anyway!

    God bless you, dear sister!

    In His Love,
    Karen

    • Karen, you are always a blessing and a comfort to me, dear sister. You make some brilliant videos and are always taking a bold stand about that which you believe.
      Please, don’t ever stop being you: you are precious to those of us who have been blessed to call you ‘friend’!

      • karensfaith Says:

        Thank you Juliet. You mean the same to me. God bless you dear sister!

        Grace and peace,
        Karen

  10. Dyo Bodiu Says:

    Well, I won’t comment the doctrines of Calvinism but I have two questions:
    Why do you speak as the Calvinistic system has the monopoly of Grace? There are other Christian denominations which hold grace, in a very good biblical perspective.
    Second, at the end I don’t get it: what needs to stop? What folly are you talking about?

    Best wishes
    Dyo

    • To understand the situation one must watch the attached videos.
      Essentially, TicToc is saying that we who hold to the Doctrines of Grace are not Christians, and must be excluded from the body of Christ.
      I would say that is folly.
      …And I was merely attempting to define Calvinism as I understand it , and admittedly am no theologian which is why I posted links to websites that do a very thorough job of so doing. I never said we have a monopoly on Grace. That is absurd!
      God bless you

      • Dyo Bodiu Says:

        Ok, I followed you advise and watch the TicToc video.
        ( Actualy not all of them and not entirely – they are so long and they don’t worth that much time spent … )
        As a first impresion I would say this lady does not worth your attention as you pay it now. There are a lot o voices in this world: we can’t answer to all of them and we don’t need to. I mean … some people disagree Calvinism, some do it in a nice way – some, as this lady, do it in a rude way. You give here more importance than she deserves. I would place her at the edge of what we understand “Christian world” and this is it – may God have mercy on her soul!
        So, my advise is to give some warnings to the people about her ministry and forget her – there are better things to do on this world.

        Still, I have some questions for you; I found you message unsatisfactory about the Grace question.
        I have not found in these videos the idea of Doctrines of Grace. I admit you don’t say it plainly – “we have the monopoly of grace” – but you imply this in they way you teach. Somehow you’ve got to a wonderfull understandin of grace – or Calvin did – and you imply that the non-calvinists don’t understand grace.
        That’s absurd, as you said, and also annoiyng.

        For many people Calvinism is not as much about grace as it is about predestination. That might be unfair for you but I would like to know your answer to that.

        And another thing:
        The TULIP acronym was first adopted at Dort in 1619. Calvin never used it – he died about 50 years before. Most of the Calvinists theologians I read claim that Calvinism is far more that the 5 point. TULIP is an answer to Arminianism, period.
        I admit is a lot easier to adress Calvinism using TULIP but is an unfair reductionism. I hope you don’t reduce the Gospel to TULIP – that would be too much.

        God bless
        Dyo

    • karensfaith Says:

      The persecution against Calvinism as it is happening on YouTube. One channel there called TicTocMinistries and the lady in the video is Monica Dennington. She has set herself up as some sort of preacher. She made a series of videos against Calvinism. What’s so upsetting about it is that she doesn’t have a clue as to what she’s talking about. She has misrepresented us terribly! We do not worship John Calvin! We worship Jesus Christ! Juliet has posted the videos about all of this. The second in the series, Monica has stated that Calvinists should be shunned until we repent of our sin. EXCUSE ME? What sin? And who made her the final authority! She said we are to be shunned completely, no emails, no messages, no phone calls, no fellowship, no NOTHING until we repent! I will NOT repent of loving Jesus Christ Who is my Lord and Savior and Monica is not God. We have done nothing to deserve this and she is so shallow that she will not talk to us, let us talk to her, comment on her videos, send her messages, she blocks us. She has proclaimed this is the final word! She’s done very great damage to the Body of Christ with her arrogant and divisive videos. She is the one who needs to repent. For a Calvinist to repent, it means we must repent of following Jesus and reading His Word and NONE of us are willing to do this.

      All caps was for emphasis, not yelling at anyone. 🙂 Hope you don’t mind my saying this here Juliet. If you do, please feel free to delete it. 🙂 God bless!

      In His Unfailing Love,
      Karen

      • I have no problem at all with you expressing what is going on. I should probably have made it clearer for those bloggers who are unaware of the situation at Youtube, but I thought the videos would speak for themselves.
        Soon I will be able to have videos on site at my blog instead of the link, which will most likely mean that people will watch them, although clicking a link is certainly easy enough. I have to pay for this feature, and when I have enough readers to warrent the expense I will have it.
        Meantime, thanks Karen, for making the situation clear.

  11. I believe in the Doctrines of Grace… which should be clear by what I have written.
    I did say, Dyo, that I am no theologion, so in the prologue of the article there are links which do give a concise explanation which I have included for those who wish to learn more.
    The five points of Calvinism were given in refutation to the five points of Arminianism, as I have elsewhere stated, and I have also included the Canons of the Synod of Dordt. I am sorry you aren’t happy with my explanation, but I did warn you that I am not a theologian.
    I believe that Calvinism explains Scripture better than any other doctrine.
    I hope you will take the time to read the information which is in the websites I have included the links to.

  12. DwayneS1988 Says:

    I think that the whole debate is summed up in this one question. “Is grace unmerited favor?” If it is unmerited favor than the only logical doctrine is that of the reformed faith. Any other doctrine sets forth the equation of “Grace + ___” So therefore anyone who is not reformed has redefined grace. If something must be added to Grace, it is no longer salvation by grace. It is salvation plus something of yourself. Which is heresy. Election is not of him who will’s or runs, but of God who shows mercy.

    • That is certainly the most concise comment that anyone has made here.
      And I am in complete agreement with you, too. Anything other than grace is grace plus something.
      Anyone who thinks that Christ’s sacrifice was insufficient is a blasphemer!
      God bless you, Dwayne.

      • Dyo Bodiu Says:

        Honestly … who said that “Christ’s sacrifice was insufficient”? I never heard that and I’m a Christian for about 15 years.
        “So therefore anyone who is not reformed has redefined grace.[…] Which is heresy.” – how in this world will a sentence like this help to the unity of Christians?
        You contradict yourself – it seems you speak the same maner as Monica Dennington.
        I hope I don’t ofend you but … can you explain these rude sentences?

        Blessings
        Dyo

      • Dyo Bodiu,

        How is it creating disunity by holding to the truth of grace alone with conviction and no compromise? Any Christian who does not reform themselves to the scriptures is creating disunity- mostly their own disunity with Christ. We were saved by grace alone by the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit. Anyone who thinks they made a decision for Christ or any other derivation of grace plus works has denied the cross. Pointing this out is not disunity- the disunity has already risen when the gospel becomes compromised by Christians who ascribe any power, however little it may be, to themselves in regeneration and conversion. It is rude only to ridicule these Christians, but Juliet’s focus, as mine is, is to challenge the thinking of these brothers and sisters to be biblical people if, in fact, they are true Christians. One who is not a true CHristian will persist in ascribing to themselves the power that is due to God alone.

        God bless,
        Brett

  13. You asked, “Why do the doctrines of grace disturb men so much?”

    Firstly, because many adherents of doctrines of grace (though not all) don’t show much grace to fellow Christians who disagree with them. Why would good theology produce bad fruit? They look down upon Arminians
    and treat them like scum, even though the Arminians are just as elect as they are, are as regenerate as they are, are children of God just as they are, are purchased by the blood of Christ just as they are, and will go to heaven just like they will.

    Secondly, because many adherents (though not all) are anti-intellectual, yet they criticize what they don’t understand. For instance, they would call Arminians semi-Pelagians (a common strawman), yet they haven’t read the “Works of James Arminius” nor Wesley’s sermons nor Watson’s “Theological Institutes”. And they can’t even define “prevenient grace”. When discussing theology, ignorance is not a virtue. Instead of reading Arminian books or talking to actual Arminian theologians/scholars, many Calvinists get their notions of what Arminians teach by reading books by other Calvinists, who in turn got their notions from other Calvinists. That is why misunderstanding of Arminian theology continues today even after four centuries. In contrast, many Arminians I know have read books by Calvinists, and are quite familar with what Calvinists teach. How can there be any meaningful discussion between Calvinists and Arminians if Calvinists are so ignorant as to what Arminians believe?

    Thirdly, because many adherents (though not all) act as though Calvinism is the gospel. It is not. The gospel is that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Peter and the other apostles.

    And most importantly, because I studied the Scriptures and came to believe that the Bible teaches Arminianism. Although Calvinism has many similarities with Arminianism, it has enough differences for it to be considered a non-Arminian system. Therefore, I reject Calvinism as unbiblical. I’m not saying that you don’t take the Bible seriously. It’s just that you and I read the same Bible and came to different conclusions on a secondary doctrine. That’s not unusual, considering there are different stances on other doctrines as well, such as believer’s baptism vs infant baptism, premillennialism vs amillennialism etc.

    That being said, I regard Calvinists as my brothers and sisters in the faith.

    • Thanks. I needed a good laugh.

      • Dyo Bodiu Says:

        That all you could reply to that?
        Then you just proved what the guy said: the Calvinists, while they claim to have the “doctrines of Grace”, they don’t know how to live in it or how to express that grace.
        At least bberchin tried to give an answer …

      • I have been gracious enough to allow everyone to comment here. And i found TrueHope’s comment to be rather funny, considering that the Calvinists I know are all very well-read, and considering that we are called satanists, witches, and aren’t saved.
        I am sorry you didn’t like it, but I think I can comment any way I like, considering that I permit everyone else here the same right, including you, Dyo.
        You think everything is one way? All day long at Youtube I am insulted. Forgive me if I let loose someof my feelings. I have given everyone else the same right.
        And TrueHope, some of what you said had merit, but the part about us not knowing about other theologies is just ridiculous. Believe me, when you are attacked daily, you want to know where people are coming from.
        The way I see it, Calvinists have the most true to Scripture theology of anyone.

      • Dyo Bodiu Says:

        Well, there is a risk when you host a forum like this one. If you are insulted daily, that’s bad and I’m sory for that.
        The way you react is your responsability, not before me or others, but before God. Then, I don’t have the right to judge you – I’ll stop any other comment on that right now.
        So, let’s have peace, beside the fact we don’t agree in some theological issues.
        God bless
        Dyo

    • TrueHope,

      I understand where you are coming from. There are many Calvinists who treat Arminians wrongly- if this is habitual then they don’t understand their own Calvinism. The same goes for the Calvinist who says that Calvinism IS Christianity. I also agree with you that there will be both Calvinists and Arminians in heaven together. However, there will also be some Calvinists and Arminians who won’t be there. No one’s theology qualifies or disqualifies them for heaven. That, of course, is works-based theology which I’m going to assume you reject.

      I also agree that there are Calvinists who do not fully understand Arminianism. The problem is that there are so many different brands (as there are Calvinists). Most Calvinists (at least myself) begin with the 5 points of Arminianism as a basis for understanding the point of view. From there you can branch off into the different permutations of it in key proponents of it as well as different denominations and their versions.

      Where we disagree is in the difference and the importance of what we believe, i.e. our theology. Calvinism and Arminianism are antithetical views of grace. The Arminian view ascribes a level of power and control to man while Calvinism ascribes ALL power and control to God (particularly in soteriology). As soon as you ascribe any power to man in salvation you have perverted the gospel and offended the heart of what the cross is. When you study the scriptures with a high view of God and His sovereignty taking into account the whole of scripture (proper hermeneutics) you have no choice but to not only embrace the doctrines of grace, but cherish them. That’s how I became a Calvinist.

      It might do you good to lessen your focus on the Calvinist himself (or herself) and begin studying the scriptures with a complete hermeneutical approach. Perhaps you should begin with Christ’s high priestly prayer in John chapter 17. That’s chock full of the doctrines of grace as the entire book of Romans is as well. In fact, they permiate the whole of scripture as, of course, Christ does.

      In Christ,
      Brett

      P.S.- Check out my YouTube channel (bberchin) and watch my videos on this subject. You may understand better where I’m coming from.

      • Brett,

        1) I have checked your YouTube channel, and I understand where you are coming from. Even though we will have to agree to disagree on some secondary (though important) doctrines, at least we agree on the primary doctrines.

        2) I do not pervert the gospel of Christ, and I dare not, for the gospel is the power of salvation for everyone who believe. Salvation is of the Lord. Power, authority, control, sovereignty, and glory belongs to God and God alone, who created space and time and everything in them. Jesus knows that I am not ashamed of Him, His cross, or His message. On the one hand, I care very little if I am judged by you or by anyone else, for it is the Lord who judges me. On the other hand, I want to follow Paul’s example in trying to please everybody in every way, not seeking my own good but the good of many. I also want to follow Peter’s instruction to give an answer to everyone who asks me to give the reason for the hope that I have, even on secondary doctrines, with gentleness and respect and a clear conscience. This is why I wrote this reply to you.

        3) You said, “When you study the scriptures with a high view of God and His sovereignty taking into account the whole of scripture (proper hermeneutics) you have no choice but to not only embrace the doctrines of grace, but cherish them.” This I strongly disagree. In terms of secondary doctrine, what is obvious to one Christian is not obvious to all. For instance, I see believer’s baptism as something obvious from Scripture, but a Presbyterian or an Anglican may see infant’s baptism as something obvious.

        4) If I were mistaken in my soteriology, it means God freely and unchangeably ordained me to become an Arminian by the most wise and holy Counsel of His own will. If I am not mistaken, it means God is pleased the fact I have correctly handled the word of truth. What I am more concerned about is my Christian conduct in this earthly pilgrimage, lest I be saved as one escaping through the flames.

        In Christ,
        TrueHope

    • Dyo Bodiu Says:

      Good points TrueHope!
      Keep up the good work!

      • Dyo, yes it was a short reply from Juliet, yet there are reasons why it was a short response & it is not my place to explain further here. Also, whilst you may not agree with or like the doctrines of grace you seem to fall into the trap of tarring all Calvinists here with the same brush. Of course there are Christians from whichever denomination that act without grace; this is patently obvious when one looks at these Calvinist/Arminian arguments that rage currently on sites like YouTube, and also on other topics too on Christianity. That some Calvinist’s are been called satanic, witches or devils by other Christians here speaks volumes, and vice versa too. It is one thing to expect abuse from an atheist, but from a brother or sister in Christ too?

        I think if you review all the articles that Juliet has written in her blog then it is fairly obvious that Juliet has love, compassion & understanding for all. So to accuse her of lacking grace because of one short remark is really a stretch too far here & a little too quick off the mark.

        It is one thing to debate an issue, but quite another to descend to the levels of insults that these debates can develop into. We must all remember the words of Jesus himself in John 13:31-35 and also John 16:9-17, which tell us that it is love that will see us through life & into heaven. I think that this love is echoed in all the words that Juliet has written in her blog as this is a big part of the new covenant that Jesus brought to redeem us and whether you agree on the doctrine of grace or not this cannot be denied here.

  14. “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any one should boast.”
    Ephesians 2:8,9

    ~julietsm

  15. Dyo Bodiu Says:

    To Gus

    If you read my posts you will realise I try to challenge the very thing that cause dis-unity, and to be more specific, I challenge the lack of humbleness of some of us. I include myself here as I fall in that trap sometimes.
    I ask forgiveness from those who were ofended by my words – I know it is unfair to make general statements. I’m not dogmatic in things that divide us and I don’t think it worth to reject one another from God’s favour and grace He has for us.

    While Juliet might be a very nice person as you described her, and I don’t have any reason to not believe you, that very message was not so nice.
    I was too quick to respond to that, but look at it as it is an opportunity to grow, for me, for her and for those who might read these posts.

    Huh!
    We all make mistakes!

    Any chance to have a good and normal (biblicaly) relationship, as God’s children?

    Blessings
    Dyo

    • I thank you very much for your graciousness, and I do apologise for any behaviour on my part that is not befitting a child of the Most High. I truly do love my brothers and sisters in Christ, and yes, that means even those who disagree with me.
      Thank you for writing to make peace; for ‘blessed are the peacemakers’, and more, that is all I have ever wanted between my Christian brethren, peace and love.
      May God bless you and each and every member of Christendom to the fullest measure, in all things, forever.

      ~julietsm

  16. Calvinists persectued? No. You have been the persecutor from your father Augustine. Your cult have feasted on the blood of the saints for hundreds of years.

    You the tares are just being separated from, that’s all.
    Your sheep skins have just been pulled off to expose the wolves that hid beneath the sheeps clothing.

    Your lies are being exposed and your ancestry from Romanism revealed, you freaks are after all just Reformed Roman Catholics, not one of you are Christian.
    And as long as you people insist in this heresy you cannot be saved.
    But then again perhaps it was that you people were predestinated to be wolves? Ever though about that one?

    • You have it backwards.
      Thank God for Martin Luther!
      Catholics and their evil deeds have given Christendom a bad name, and I am afraid it is you who put your faith in popery and your Romanism to save you.
      I agreed to let everyone post here, that is why I posted this comment, which I find revolting as I find the Catholic Church revolting.
      You are idolaters.

    • Dyo Bodiu Says:

      … and you must be such a nice person …
      How can you look in the mirror after writing words like these?
      Are you God to decide who is Christian or who is not?

      After readeng your post I can plainly say: YOU are the murderer.

      • Are you responding to Augustine was a murderer?

      • Dyo Bodiu Says:

        Yes, I respond to that “Augustin”.

        I’m sorry … I replied to his post … as you look at it you can’t tell that … and I can’t have a direct reply to the very post you sent me.

        In the other hand I think it’s sad read what he wrote. If I would be you I wouldn’t let his post to apear here. It breaks some common sense rules.

        I pray and I hope you’ll have strength and wisdom to not answer in the same attitude.

        Wish you the best in Him
        Dyo

      • My reply is there for you to see, Dyo. And no, I think I have learned my lesson about speaking to others in an unchristian way, however I did speak what I believe to be the truth.
        And if he were to try post here again, I would not permit it. I said I would permit all CHRISTIANS to post here, but surely this is no Christian.
        No more posts from this person!

        Btw, I thought too that I would allow others to see the hatefulness and blindness of the Catholic mindset. I do think that some Catholics are saved in spite of their Catholicism, like Augustine and Thomas a Kempis, and many others alive today, but this person cannot be one of them.

        God bless you, Dyo.

    • Tut-Tut! Sadly, in professing to be a Christian yourself you seem to adopt a very hostile and abusive attitude to fellow brothers & sisters in Christ too. And using the title name of “Augustine was a murderer” really will not adhere anyone to actually taking this sad and pathetic rant of yours seriously. It really does smack more of hurt pride here than an actual debate on what Juliet has written here.

      I suggest you keep your rants for the playground were they belong. And you really do need to learn more etiquette and manners when responding to anyone, let alone other Christians.

      “I give you a new commandment: love one another. Just as I have loved you, you must also love another. By this all people will know that you are MY disciples, if you have love for one another.” John 13:34-35

      I think most will see that you indeed are not a true disciple of the Lord here by the words that pour from your mouth!

      I will pray that you repent your ways before it is indeed too late for you!

    • I think your comment more than speaks for itself.
      Thanks!
      I truly hope you will learn to have a heart of love, instead of this venomous thing which spews poison.

  17. Juliet, I think if you read my post again I did say that “in profesing to be a Christian”. Also, I did say at the end too that most people will see that he is not a true follower of the Lord here. The part where I said fellow brothers & sisters was not meant as such to refer to him here, but other Christians. However, the mistake was mine for the way I did indeed word it here.

    • Yes, you did. Sorry for not making it clearer. (You did say “abusive attitude toward fellow brothers and sisters”)
      Its only that it is a grave error to ever imply someone so obviously not of the elect a brother…
      I did not mean to give offense here at all, I simply wished to clarifly.
      I am always most grateful for your comments and I shall delete the other one.
      You are one of my biggest supporters, if not THE biggist. Very sorry.

      julietsm

  18. This is directed to Augustine was a murderer,
    It seems apparent that you have been duped into believeing Catholic propaganda about the truth you profess to impart.
    While it is true that the reformers found themselves in the midst of all evil,they,being led of God,went out from Sodom and Egypt,as she is spiritually called,as we too are commanded to do,and went about to show us the way of God more perfectly.
    In as much as these men were at the first indoctrinated into believeing a lie,and in so much as they were but men,capable of error,we ought not not to stop where they themselves begin but to continue to search the depths of the wisdom and knowledge of God knowing that there would most certainly be left vestiges of that from which they came out of.
    For is it not written,
    ” The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.”
    Christianity is full of the doctrine of leaven,but God is faithful and he has promised that he will never leave us nor forsake us.
    Our trust is not in men,but in God,let us therefore,as the writer says,press on toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God which is in Yahshua the Messiah and not be so quick to judge what God has sanctified,namely his own.
    Shalom in the beloved

  19. this was a very well written and powerful sense of the control God has over all things. And although you may not be a theologian dearest Juliet, you defined Calvanism as well as you did. Calvanism as we have discussed before, DOES follow scripture and rely on scripture unto it’s own as the clear and ultimate message of God. Others like to show John 3:16 like you said previously, but then what about all the backsliders, murderers, liars, adulterers who also profess to be Christians? And yet, they believe in Jesus the Christ don’t they? They did their little five minute prayer accepting him to save them! So if God told them “hey you can’t come into Heaven” this would mean God went back on his word by presenting John 3:16 to us! Because if God and all his majesty, gave us a gift(himself in the flesh to die for us)and then took it back, indian giver? liar? that’s not the God I know, therefor, interestingly, in Revelation, John says that when the Spirit of the Anti-Christ has revealed himself, and when the false prophet arises, “and he will deceive many, even the ELECT” whoa, whoa, whoa! slow down, ‘the elect’? who could this be? what do you mean by ‘elect’ the fact that God chose who his servants would be, upsets the masses because yes they do think as you said, “hey! everyone deserves to be saved!” YES! And the ones he saw while in Genesis 1:1(laughs)WILL be saved. Scripture tells us, he knew everything from the begining, and knew the end before it happened. Not a single event has passed by his eyes that he has not already seen coming. So the word “chosen” or “elect” makes some people cringe. The word “destined” maybe, because God KNEW who was going to follow him. The saints that would die for him! He also knew everyone that would REJECT him! So why should Christians waste their times trying to reach somebody that God KNOWS that in their life time, would never come to him? “but what about all the bad people who are bad, and then come and get saved?” well, there’s another elect. Just because you have a past, doesn’t mean God didn’t see that! But that also means God is going to totally leave you out, because hey, since Adam and Eve, nobody is perfect. John Calvin….no, Calvanists do not “worship” John Calvin that is absolutely preposterous and ridiculous to make such a statement, that’s like you telling me that because I ate McDonalds, I worship Ronald McDonald! haha keep making these articles Juliet, I love reading them! very insightful! God’s spirit is definitely inspiring these things I read here.
    “a dog barks when it’s master is attacked, I would be a coward to see God’s truth being attacked, and would yet remain silent”-John Calvin
    and on my last note,
    “how could God not know everything like, I mean, he’s GOD!”-Juliet 🙂

    • I am not so sure that God looked down the corridors of time, so to speak, to make his election.
      Remember that He chose Jacob over Esau, and did so as it says in the Word “Before either one had done anything either good or bad”, so that his purpose in election might stand.
      I do believe that one must be called, and only in this way can one come to Christ. That said, for a babe in Christ you are have a great handle on Scripture, and I am very impressed with your love and desire for the Lord. And this, like me, coming from a family where you are the only believer. We must believe that it is God’s doing, it certainly was not taught to us by our parents.
      Sola Dei Gloria!

  20. How sad I am that I am unable to comment directly to a TrueHope, who, while he disagrees with my doctrine wrote a thoughtful letter which I disagreed with.
    I feel very small for having comported myself so badly with him/her. I am learning to be gracious and this is something which of course only the Lord can teach us; we are all works in progress.
    Sometimes I allow myself to write the first thing that comes to mind, and it is never a good thing to belittle or mock your brother.
    I am so very sorry if I have been this way with anyone, I am learning to be patient and not jump the minute a post hits the blog, but to slowly digest it. On the other hand, people lijke AugustineWasaMurderer really don’t need my comments, they stand alone and speak for themselves.

    Sadly.

  21. I’m someone who is searching for truth. I’ve been attending a reformed fellowship and my dearest friends (my brothers and sisters in Christ) believe in predestination. I, myself, was on the fence after they showed me Romans 9 and told me their take on it. Then I just became disturbed when my friends said, they couldn’t get the whole Bible to agree with their Calvinist views so they were weighing the Bible against itself and throwing out what didn’t fit with their beliefs. OK. That had me freaked out so I began to search for something that could explain this where the Bible (and Paul) would not be contradictory. I found this 6 part video and I am amazed: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=B3A0F529D24D2E5E&annotation_id=annotation_187644&feature=iv
    I don’t usually post comments online as I don’t have the time to respond like others do. For some reason unknown to me, you were on my heart and I just wanted you to see this video. Take care! Much love.

  22. I have never heard of such a thing; everything that I believe is in agreement with Scripture. For example:
    “For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any one should boast”.
    Ephesians 2:8,9
    I prefer to be called a Christian, not a Calvinist, but ever since this Youtube war began I have taken a stand for the Truth, which I believe that Calvinism is; nothing more than the Word of Truth rightly divided.
    Our beliefs are not based solely on Romans 9, everything in the Word speaks of God’s sovereignty, and I believe those who reject His sovereignty reject the Truth.
    God Bless you,

    julietsm

    PS Throwing out that which did not fit their beliefs? These sound like heretics, which Calvinists are most definitely not. In fact, Arminianism was considered heresy long ago. Check out this website:

    http://www.the-highway.com/compare.html

  23. i’m a follower a Jesus Christ. i don’t agree with Calvinism tho. i side more with the Arminians, but i would never call myself an Arminian just becuase i believe like them. the only reason why i don’t agree with Calvinism is that i deeply do not believe the whole “once saved always saved.” because it talks of apostates in the bible, and i’ve done heard people’s interpretation on certian verses. what some people interpret doesn’t make any sense cuz in the bible paul and the others constantly were warning the christians and telling them not to fall into sin because sin leads to death(spiritually) why else would they continue to warn them if they couldn’t fall from the grace of God. i totally believe in free will, we either choose to continue to obey God’s word or not.
    i made a choice to come to Jesus in much prayer seeking for answers (truth about life) and began to seek him out thru reading his word, thats how i found out what salvation was and i chose to believe in his word….i got convicted by the holy spirit about sin and i then gave my life to Jesus, thats when he changed me and freely gave me eternal life thru faith in him.John 6:45

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